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Post by Zemke on Mar 31, 2012 0:11:19 GMT
Before reading this you should fully understand Kayz's proposal. Therefor read Khamski's visualization in a previous post.
This post is mainly addressed to all the naysayers.
For me the playoff pairing system should maintain two things. For one thing the way to the final should be similarly difficult for everyone and for another thing it shouldn't be predictable.
Crespo's Worms Tournament is the most prestigious tournament in the Worms world and the playoffs shouldn't be influenced by any randomness except the piece of randomness that doesn't allow any player to predict his place in the playoff tree. The goal is do decrease randomness as much as possible while keeping the tiny bit that it requires to avoid any manipulation during the group stage for the sake of a better spot in the playoff tree. Last but not least we need to take into account the group results.
Players who were best in their group need some kind of advantage that doesn't kill the previously named guidelines. Kayz's system fulfills that in a brilliant way. It uses the guidelines under the influence of the group stage. Eight best players of the subjective ranking will be fairly seeded over the playoff tree. That's the first step which opens up the possibility of having best players in the world be the best of CWT.
Now some might say, "Hey, who are you to subjectively name eight best players?" This question isn't even important. In case a player who was previously rated as being among the top eight finished the group stage on place two only, Kayz's system automatically removes the player from the top eight. Yeah, he's not among the top eight anymore and will face a player who is among the top eight. Moreover a player who wasn't among the top eight before would now be promoted to it.
If you thought that the subjective ratings have too much influence, I hope you know it better now. You will either get a worse opponent if you do well in group stage or a better one if you lack in group stage. In fact your performance during the group stage dictates the strength of your playoff opponent. That's the way it should be, isn't it?
I've worked out an example that should mute all the naysayers.
Subejctive ranking:
#1 Dario
#2 Kayz
#3 Mablak
#4 Koras
#5 Joschi
#6 Tomek
#7 FaD
#8 TenoriTaiga
Group stage results:
1st: Tomek, Joschi, Kayz, Mablak, Dario, Koras, FaD, TenoriTaiga
2nd: Rafka, Bytor, Weem4n, Random00, WorldMaster, Thouson, Johnmir, Tade
The playoff tree could be like this:
Dario (#1) vs. WorldMaster (2nd)
Dario (#1) vs. TenoriTaiga (#8)
TenoriTaiga (#8) vs. Tade (2nd)
Dario (#1) vs. Koras (#4)
Koras (#4) vs. Johnmir (2nd)
Koras (#4) vs. Joschi (#5)
Joschi (#5) vs. Rafka (2nd)
Final: Dario (#1) vs. Kayz (#2)
3rd: Mablak (#3) vs. Koras (#4)
Kayz (#2) vs. Random00 (2nd)
Kayz (#2) vs. FaD (#7)
FaD (#7) vs. Weem4n (2nd)
Kayz (#2) vs. Mablak (#3)
Mablak (#3) vs. Bytor (2nd)
Mablak (#3) vs Tomek (#6)
Tomek (#6) vs. Thouson (2nd)
Ultimate proof: Add together the subjective ranking numbers of each pairing in quarterfinal and semifinal. Yes, it's always the same sum.
Look at the final games: #1, #2, #3 and #4 in correct order.
The system works all the same under other circumstances - do the math.
I'm thankful to Kayz for this perfect system. I guess it just lacked explanation.
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Post by khamski on Mar 31, 2012 6:49:57 GMT
Hey hey! Don't diminish my input. I want my damn credits. - The basic idea of all this thing was mine. Using subjective rating for the knockout draw. It is basicly is the solvation of a big problem of previous tourney. I was going to it while being a MOD and suddenly come up with it after watching CL draw. Kayz polished it a bit with right branching. So i call for Khamski-Kayz system. p.s. I know.. i know... but i don't wanna be pushed aside.  Peace. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 11:16:41 GMT
Why can not meet in the semis or in the quarterfinals first vs second??So it happens, it's normal for tournaments ... Because we've assisted a redefinition of the words "fair" and "tournament". |
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Post by Kayz on Mar 31, 2012 12:06:39 GMT
Very nice post, Zemke. This should show anyone that the group phase is as important as it was before. Now even when Joschi still thinks that there is an ultra high chance that Pot A will win the group, I ask: Why making a group phase anyway if it's about 100% for you? Then we can also let Pot B, C and D play each other and then they can join Pot A in the playoffs? Haha no I guess.. So if you get 2nd in Groupphase, and you happen to be in Pot A, you are removed from Pot A, and the 9th will become the 8th and so on. That's why it's random even after the group phase. Yes Khamski you had the idea, but you didn't develop a system with the branches  . So anyway of course most honour goes to you, I like the double K system  |
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Post by khamski on Mar 31, 2012 13:03:42 GMT
New system is amazing. The more i analyse it the more i get it benefits. 1. Fight for 1st place. Now will be hot as never before. Great. 2. Lame and awkward 2011 situations are no longer possible. Great. 3. Tree is not fixed. So you don't know who you will get in knockouts. Great. 4. Your path to final is fair. You can't go easy way. You can't go uber hard way. Great. Back in 2011 things was like: Bottom branch guys got a real tough life. Because they had some consecutive uber hard clashes. Top branch was a joke. Koras was going to final easy. Note that he had RL troubles at that time and had an awful shape. Also he was bitchin on a system himself also laughing at it. He wasn't focused. And after he got his 1st opponent from tough branch he lost 0-4. And it happened in a final! wtf!?3rd place game was a lost time for everyone. Mablak, Joschi, commentators and most importantly cwt audience. So who "redefined" terms of "fair" and "randomness"? I am pretty sure it was redefined in 2011 by Joschi's tree system. And that attempt failed miserably. I was a commentator and kind of watched people reaction. That tree was a real joke. This new system is very nice. Simple. Balanced. And wise. Kayz:Yep. You polished it nice. Double K is great.  p.s. I don't wanna start any war and i am sorry if my words sound harsh. It just a true response on "redefined" statement.  Anyway, peace |
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Post by Random00 on Mar 31, 2012 13:38:34 GMT
I liked last years system.
I can also live with the new suggested system, but I think it will make things more boring. Just my opinion, though.
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Post by khamski on Mar 31, 2012 13:44:38 GMT
I can compare this new system with Dario's "nnn luckless" scheme.
It balanced our playing and made it more pro like.
Although at the start many people thought it will dry things out.
They were wrong.
The best 2011 system product was Random - Joschi game.
It was awesome.
But i don't see any reason this kind of clash wont happen in 2012.
Those 2 can meet in 1/8 or 1/4 with big probability and give us a great spectacle again.
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Post by Zemke on Mar 31, 2012 14:19:30 GMT
First of all I'm pleased with helping Koras through a difficult time of life by using CWT 2011's playoff tree.  Last year's playoff tree wasn't only Joschi's, it was also mine and I still like it. It didn't fail miserably. 2K's system does also have its vulnerabilities. It's not as perfect as I titled it before. Let's say Dario, Kayz and Mablak are the top three. Dario doesn't need to fear Mablak or Kayz, only Koras. For me that's a big advantage by system. There are always going to be advantages for some, but for me it's a difference whether it's by system or by draw. Draw is what a tournament makes a tournament. I agree on that. Edit: Agree on Random00, the new system will take the thrill away. |
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Post by khamski on Mar 31, 2012 15:07:22 GMT
Totally wrong statement, Zemke.
Great games is what makes a great tournament.
Draw is just a management instrument.
When you give so much care to weak players in the tree you forget about the entertainment part. CWT audience suffer from weak finals and weak 3rd place games. It's a proven fact. Proven by 2011 edition.
But don't get me wrong. I don't say 2011 was a fail or something.
It was a huge success. Both you and Joschi did a GREAT work.
And i mean it.
But we discuss it here not to kiss each others butts and feel pleased with it.
We work here.
We want CWT to get even better.
We throw away weak chains and cut out rotten parts.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2012 16:04:31 GMT
fairness n.
Synonyms: fair, just, equitable, impartial, unprejudiced, unbiased, objective, dispassionate
These adjectives means free from favoritism, self-interest, or preference in judgment. And now tell me that Player 1. isn't excessivly prefered in this K.O. modus. He doesn't have to play Player 2. neither Player 3. No other Player get this kind of advantage. How we determine Player 1? Based on his skill level before tourney's starting shot, based on the opinion of three helpers. Does this justify significantly (and systematically) advantages in front of Player 2? My compromiss would treat Player 1. and Player 2. equal, but also avoids accumulation of TOP3 players. At the same time, it's the draw, and not a system, who judges about favoring somebody. "Bottom branch guys got a real tough life." Mablak and Kayz were the only guys who had a hard way to go. Nobody else from this branch can complain. Mablak reached TOP3. Your remarks are speculative, I can too: In 3rd place match I scored the same number of rounds like Kayz did vs Mablak. I think Dario wasn't close to a defeat, not in Finals vs Koras neither in Semifinal vs Mablak. Just to relativize this constructed terrifying vision of CWT2011 tree. One thing is sure, the tourney tree of CWT12 will be drawn manually by Kayz, papers and pencil, recorded and live-streamed. Like this, the "draw destiny" will be a lot more accepted, then it was last year the case, when we made the draw by a programm. |
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Post by khamski on Mar 31, 2012 17:36:09 GMT
Yup. Draw stream is awesome. I demand Kayz have a sexy female assistant.  Both dressed up to occasion. Pots should be transparent! ;D on Joschi idea:I must say now it seems not that bad to me. How about making a brief graphic visualisation (this kind of style: i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j420/politaeus/Playoff.jpg) of both systems and make a poll? Thus we atract future cwt participants to this discussion. And those who didn't vote will have shut the f up later in the tourney when they will feel the urge to complain. So poll? |
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Post by Mablak on Mar 31, 2012 23:08:56 GMT
I definitely prefer this idea of a subjective seeding to help determine the ladder, even if it's not completely accurate, it will almost certainly be better than randomness.
And a live draw would be cool too, if you guys really want to do it ;O
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Post by Kayz on Apr 1, 2012 14:58:02 GMT
Hm Joschi I thought there are no significant differences between the Top players? So why you say that Player 3 is sooooo much harder than Player 4, why you think Player 1 gets a so huge advantage? Why you think there are only 3 players who are much better than the rest? I agree with Khamski, 2011 bottom branch was a mess, and I still only want simple fairness, since we don't know who will be top 8 before the group phase ends "Edit: Agree on Random00, the new system will take the thrill away." Sorry, but what are you talking about? We still don't know how the Top 8 will look like, since some of top 8 could get 2nd or even don't get into Playoffs... Where the thrill is gone? "I can compare this new system with Dario's "nnn luckless" scheme. It balanced our playing and made it more pro like. Although at the start many people thought it will dry things out. They were wrong." This, this and this again! The people who most complained about the 2011 tree were the people who suffered under it, the people who saw its unfairness, and the people who wondered they got that far, like Koras, who was far from his best shape. I still prefer a close and awesome equally tourney to a tourney with for example a boring 0-4 final (which took the thrill for me away) That's just my opinion, though |
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Post by khamski on Apr 1, 2012 17:11:25 GMT
Guys. Bad news.
Team17 will soon stop all their activities.
Don't know the details.
They soon will make this message public.
I got it from Cybershadow guy. Russian fella.
So all servers will be shutdown right after they declare it.
Sorry but seems like "ag?" won't be our beloved shout anymore.
p.s. There are some other ways to play this game anyway though. So cheer up.
p.p.s. Some cocky young smartass is getting on my nerves right now. But thats nothing comparing to this new... Dam.
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Post by Zemke on Apr 1, 2012 17:22:47 GMT
"Edit: Agree on Random00, the new system will take the thrill away." Sorry, but what are you talking about? We still don't know how the Top 8 will look like, since some of top 8 could get 2nd or even don't get into Playoffs... Where the thrill is gone? It's not gonna be as exciting as 2011 because in 2011 things weren't as predefined as they're now. Your system does predefine things and predefining things is unfair. When I said your system was perfect, I meant it was perfect for the way you define "fair". I understand both definitions of fair and I'm not part of Kayz's nor Joschi's system. Both systems are good and it depends solely on the player's attitude which of the systems he favors and that's why I'd choose Joschi's system because it's already a compromise of yours. |
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Peace.
. So anyway of course most honour goes to you, I like the double K system 
