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Post by chuvash on Oct 14, 2012 12:26:20 GMT
See Mablak!!! This topic because of you!  People scare about game with you!  |
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Post by Kayz on Oct 15, 2012 12:05:57 GMT
Well Koras, even if it still looks like that for some players, I still have the right to explain myself And I apologize for my hasty first decision without discussing it out first. |
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Post by khamski on Oct 19, 2012 11:33:20 GMT
I think Kayz is doing good moding here. He analysed things and made wise decision. @tade: Maybe my opinion looks lame to you. It's okay. I am not Kayz fan really. In fact i don't even like him much.  But i still stand on the same ground. Decisions were made. Experts voted. Rules were written and sealed. So we must respect it. Mods decided otherwise because of some preliminary closed discussion that had place. Well, ok. I was a mod too and i understand that these kind of complicated situations happen. So i hope this case is solved. And we move on. Sforza CWT! |
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Post by khamski on Oct 21, 2012 8:47:15 GMT
Okay, i got harsh critics from Kayz for my "we all know who the best players are" escapade. I apologize for that. Sometimes i have to hold my horses and chill a bit.  So Tade you were right there. Peace.  |
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Post by Koras on Oct 21, 2012 20:12:28 GMT
I just lost my last game in group so I am 2nd too, just like Kayz Am i mad? no why? cause it wont change my chances to win this tourney!! Ok I can be in same half of tree as Mablak but I also can be in second one with Chuvash and Kayz I just realized if I won this game I could meet one of them in final... so it would be same situation like in last year when Mablak,Dario and Kayz eliminated each other. PLS delate this rule, its not neccesery. |
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Post by khamski on Oct 21, 2012 20:47:27 GMT
*Disclaimer: we discuss it only for 2013 edition of course*
It is obvious that this new system will give you tough opponents anyway.
The goal was to avoid 2011 situation when most of the strongest players were placed in one branch.
If you want old Crespo system back plz describe it.
What exactly do you want?
Okay before we start another hot discussion i propose to get back by a memory lane.
Crespo years (2002-2007):
Groups were made ...
Playoff pairs were predefined by fixed scheme "Group A 1st play Group F 2nd" and so on.
Jigsaw year (2008):
How were playoff pairs defined?
Khamski year (2009):
Groups were made using subjective rating.
Playoff draw were made without any restructions except
"1st plays second".
Joschi&Zemke years (2010-2011):
How were playoff pairs defined?
Kayz&Joschi&Zemke year (2012):
How were playoff pairs defined?
Lets build the big picture bit by bit.
And analyze all pros & cons.
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Post by zoky on Oct 22, 2012 6:43:03 GMT
the best system is same like in football..so 8 groups,pot 1 players in every group...beafore turney start we will know that 1ST player from group A will play vs 2ND players from group C,etc...so if "kayz lose he will go on top player from some group",and every thing is clear.U will avoid situations like this..like koras say this rule do nothing.
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Post by khamski on Oct 22, 2012 7:56:28 GMT
Like in football? There is a playoff draw in CL.
Pre-defined playoff pairs are not a great thing.
Old Crespo tourneys were like that.
Are you sure you want that back?
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Post by zoky on Oct 22, 2012 9:35:06 GMT
in Cl they dont separate barca and real .it simply 1st vs 2nd in world cup is good coz u know where u go,and i like that system and there is possibility to avoid "2 best players" in same part of draw...how?easy...for example put kayz in group 1 and mablak in group 8,so there is no way for their game till final...but if kayz have bad day and he finish group stage at 2nd place he will have harder way till that final coz he must play vs 1st player from group 2..but if u ask me i hate rule "2 best players"...u have 8 players in pot1,so they r favorites,and dont make diference between them.simply just make draw,8 groups and let the best win |
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Post by khamski on Oct 22, 2012 17:24:26 GMT
Sounds reasonable.
ALso i must say that "separate best two" idea was weird for me since the time i heard it.
Kayz and me had another idea.
Then it transformed into this non-sense.
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Post by Zemke on Oct 23, 2012 19:19:27 GMT
Joschi&Zemke years (2010-2011):How were playoff pairs defined? Kayz&Joschi&Zemke year (2012):How were playoff pairs defined? In 2010 and 2011 playoff pairs were seeded randomly but with these restrictions: - First against second of group stage. - Players of the same group won't meet. It's like in 2012 with one restriction appended: - The two best (whoever they will eventually be) are going to be in different branches. in Cl they dont separate barca and real .it simply 1st vs 2nd the best system is same like in football..so 8 groups,pot 1 players in every group...beafore turney start we will know that 1ST player from group A will play vs 2ND players from group C,etc...so if "kayz lose he will go on top player from some group",and every thing is clear.U will avoid situations like this..like koras say this rule do nothing. I think you've misunderstood the drawings of both Champions League and World Cup. They do separate FC Barcelona and Real Madrid, because they're from the same association. They're separating by associations. FC Barcelona and Real Madrid both belong to the association called “Real Federación Española de Fútbol”. About World Cup: The last two group stage games of each group are played simultaneously making it harder for everyone to predict the opponent in the playoff. Since that is something hard to apply to CWT, we just use randomness instead. The goal is to not be able to have control over one's playoff opponent. Now that the soccer approach seems attractive to the majority, we necessarily need to know what the actual guidelines really are. The World Cup idea can't be applied to CWT as I said, but the Champions League seems interesting. If we did it the Champions League-way, it would be random again but with these restrictions: - First against second (like CWT 2010 - present). - Players of the same group won't meet (like CWT 2010 - present). - Previously mentioned rules do only apply to the round of last sixteen (like CWT 2010 - present). - Competitors of the same association won't meet (there are no associations in Worms, so let's just strip that off). - There's no real playoff tree. Players are randomly seeded after every stage. So there would be a drawing after each stage, too. So, the Champions League-way is very similar to the current. They only differ in the last point. Now, guys, is that something you'd want to see in CWT? |
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Post by zoky on Oct 24, 2012 7:18:41 GMT
they separate baraca and real justz co they r from spain,same is wit lille and montpelier etc,they dont seperate them coz they r good.if u ask it stupid but ok platin(asshole) have reasons i quess..
I understand what U talk about groups like in WC but look...chuvash,koras,mablak,dario,kayz,joschi etc will always go on win..i dont see any reason why should they lose on pusrpose,but if they lose who cares,they still need beat best player on their way till throne...
handball rule is also ok if u wana find best player without any talk about lucky draw or smth like that...but then we need change number of players i quess
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 15:59:18 GMT
Ontopic:1) We are going to repeat the same discussion like last year (ideas of (un-)fairness, comparisons to other sport tournaments, etc.). This discussion lead us to our current system. The only new thing I've noticed is Zemkes proposal, to draw after each playoff stage. Well, I like his idea. Disadvantage: Players can't play their next playoff stage games, before everybody has played their games. 2) Yesterday I heared following opinion in stream: "In last year, final and third game match were the most boring games of playoffs." Agree. But do you remember at Dario vs Mablak and Kayz vs Mablak? These two games weren't in any way more thrilling then the final matchs. Mablak (1-3) didn't show a lot more resistance to Dario then Koras (0-4) did. Kayz (0-3) didn't show more resistance to Mablak then I (0-4) did. So, 2011 Dario outshined every other participant. The playoff tree system delivered Dario - without any doubt - the most dangerous players.The only reason why critics were offended by old system: it paved a not-in-shape-koras the way into final. At the same time, dinosauriers like Kayz and Mablak got stuck in playoffs. Is that fair, that Koras wins a trophy, though he didn't has to compete with one of them? No, its unfair. Unfairness created by draw. But draw is the most objective and most neutral tool we have. Every other tool can create unfairness, too. But a tournament isn't a league, thus it can't represent a correct skill ranking of every participant. Honestly, that makes a tourney to what it is: it crownes the winner. Not the 2nd, 3rd or 4th placed guy.3) The CWT playoff tree systems from 2002-2009 weren't doubted, not because they guaranteed more fairness or more transparency. They weren't doubted, because players weren't that good like today and because of the cash prize gave our tournament a certain seriousness. So, referring to old playoff systems doesn't make a lot of sense, they had their "weak points", too. Offtopic:I just lost my last game in group so I am 2nd too, just like Kayz Am i mad? no why? cause it wont change my chances to win this tourney!! You refered 8 times to yourself in your little post. Only a donkey argues like that (analog to the german proverb: "Only a donkey names himself first").
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Post by Koras on Oct 24, 2012 16:49:42 GMT
Once again:
In last year Koras did not have to play vs anyone of "current" top 3(Dario,Mablak,Kayz).
This year, there is same chance that chuvash wont play vs anyone of "current" top 3(Mablak,Kayz,Koras) till final.
So we have this new rule but situation is just same = R A N D O M
btw as u can see now, 2 of 3 "current top" players didnt even won thier group....
In my opinion its really hard to make this kind of ranking. Especially when you consider tourney experience and activity.
In 2012 i was tanked 6th,9th and 5th at the ends of ONL seasones, 2 time out of PO in first round(2x 2:3 vs Mablak/Dario but its still a lost game in first round of PO). Not even a solid result by 3rd player of our "subjective ranking".
Trust me I am the one who will be ranked again as one of top players in next year... it could be helpfull for me.
Anyway i prefer 'TOTAL LUCK easy way to final then' then 'easy way to final with a little help of rules that favor the best players'.
pls dont cry about last year so hard it was very good tourney, i was best in my half of tree so I reached final:).
In previous CWT we had a loots of strange situations and big suprises too, but many of U dont even remeber this situations(no archive atm ...)
I remmber when I beat Random00 3;0 in normal tourney(if I am not wrong hosted by zoky) one or two days before his CWT final game:) I was better then him in this year but who the fuck cares? he is the one who won a trophy!
I am jealous of his success just like Joschi(our donkey) is jealous of my "unfair" smaller CWT success.
Greece wasnt best team in Europe at 2004, but it doesnt mean they do not deserved for a CUP.
I dont want take part in this discussion, its simply stupid.
Tourney was, is and will be random doesnt amtter what rules u will add or remove.
I prefered orginal CWT system.
"Crespo years (2002-2007):
Groups were made ...
Playoff pairs were predefined by fixed scheme "Group A 1st play Group F 2nd" and so on."
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Post by zoky on Oct 24, 2012 17:03:15 GMT
look..there is no deadline for games so if u wanna find best layer do like this..ok this will take more time but this will give us chance to fix "bad day" game,and u will have best normal player in year
how?
so 32 players...8 groups....when 1st stage complete we have new 4 groups with 4 players(best two from groups in 1st stage)..to be fair 1st player from 1st stage group will have 2 points at start 2nd stage.....after 2nd group stage finsih we have 8 players in KO stage...IMO u will rly have best players in last 8,we will all have many games to watch,and finaly we will get winner
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People scare about game with you! 
